Podcasting allows for a variety of formats. Some talk for an hour and hit publish, posting whatever is said, mistakes and all, as is. Others use scripts to ensure better grammar and the full formation of thoughts and ideas. Laura and I pick a topic, do our own research, hit record, and see where the conversation goes. I edit out the fluff, and although I didn’t do it this week, try to get it as close to 30 minutes as possible.  

In retrospect, today’s pod would’ve benefited from a script and actresses capable of keeping their anger in check. Not because we need to be nice, but because when you’re talking about the horror that is the Epstein Files, in Trump’s misogynistic America, without knowing who is actually listening, a softer tone is probably more appropriate. 

Respectfully, this is your trigger warning. This might not be the episode for you because, although we discuss a variety of topics, we ultimately ask difficult questions that we should’ve fleshed out more. Instead, two angry, yet pretty privileged women, tear into the Epstein Files and an abhorrent justice system. It’s loud, raw, and unapologetically furious, A.K.A., not for everyone.

A dear friend sent me a link to The Interview with Maggie Gyllenhaal in which Gyllenhaal is being interviewed by Lulu Garcia-Navarro about her new movie, The Bride!. Her first big-budget directing gig meant test screenings, audience feedback, and corporate “suggestions” regarding directorial choices. Clearly, Ms. Gyllenhaal is a curious person, which not only fuels the way she creates her art but also allows for a lovely, nuanced interview such as this.

What I found interesting was how interested she is, in general. Instead of finding audience feedback offensive, she leaned in more. When the violence she chose to include caused a negative reaction, she listened yet also pushed back in a way that was neither dismissive nor demeaning.

“I want to talk about the sexual violence because that’s another thing that I have been taken to task for. I’m interested in this. I really am. I’m really curious…because I had a couple of women say, ‘I don’t want to see a woman being violated’. And I think I also don’t want to see that. And yet that is a major reality in the culture that we’re living in. And so if we’re gonna see it, which in this movie we do need to see it, we need to see it in a way that is very hard to watch because it is very awful. ~ Maggie Gyllenhaal

Later in the interview, they discuss rage. Garcia-Navarro noted, “That’s what I connected. It’s not the violence. It’s the rage against the violence”.

Gyllenhaal replied, “I was thinking about rage and thinking about this teacher I had who was just a major, major teacher to me. Her name was Penny Allen. She’s used to say, ‘Rage is an umbrella emotion.’ And what she meant was what’s underneath it. I think what’s underneath it is usually very vulnerable.

There’s so much to say about rage…Let’s not skip rage like we have a right to it. But I am also really curious about what’s underneath it. I do feel angry about all sorts of things, you know, and feel a lot of vulnerability underneath that, and a desire to be heard. And I hope that, you know, the people in the test screening who said, ‘I don’t want to see this.’ And I know what they meant. I know they meant ‘enough of this in a gratuitous way’. None of us want to see it. But let’s look at it together with thoughtfulness and care”. 

For me personally, the files have put front and center the truth about what it means to be a woman in America – a never-ending oscillation between rage and vulnerability. If you’re a survivor of sexual assault, please know this episode focuses on our rage regarding the system, more than the vulnerability of victims, and might feel tone-deaf. You deserve care, compassion, and safety; a compassionate Maggie Gyllenhaal-level conversation. You didn’t get it. We apologize and respect if this isn’t the space for you this week.

Officially, we discuss: Complexities surrounding the Epstein case; Failures of the legal system; Impact of power and wealth on justice; Need for accountability; Psychological aspects of abuse; Importance of transparency; Societal implications of sexual violence; Necessity of confronting uncomfortable truths to protect future victims and ensure justice for survivors. 

But if you’re as rageful as we are, and ready to channel that rage into righteous indignation—hit play—for this is the episode (S2Ep9) for you.